Your Podcast Will Suck at First (That’s Normal) with Heather Herington

The Importance of Separate Tracking in Podcasting

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The Podcasting Morning Show is your morning meetup where podcasting meets purpose and creativity. Sparking connection. Hosted by Mark Ronick with two decades of experience and elevated by a team comprised of award-winning podcasters, accomplished entrepreneurs and producers,

Transitioning from Blogging to Podcasting

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and podcast hosts with years of experience. Together, they form the backbone of the podcasting morning chat. Diving into the nuts and bolts of content creation, sharing real-life challenges, solutions, and success stories. Streaming live every weekday at 8 a.m. Eastern Standard Time from Clubhouse, yes, Clubhouse, and available as a podcast just a couple of hours later, the show has evolved into a go-to resource for content creators worldwide. Imagine a mastermind group's collaborative spirit combined with the engaging vibe of a Morning Drive radio show. That's what we're all about. Learn more at www.podcasting morningshow.com.

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Most new podcasters think they need the perfect setup, the perfect strategy, or the perfect first episode before they can finally hit publish. But the truth is, every creator starts messy, every creator starts uncertain, and most people quit long before they ever give themselves a chance to improve. In this episode, I'm joined by Heather Harrington for an honest conversation about what it really feels like to build a podcast in real time. We talk about failing forward, imperfect growth, creator overwhelm, finding your voice, and why authenticity matters more than trying to sound polished. Because podcasting isn't really about perfection, it's about learning how to keep showing up long enough to become who you're trying to become. If you've ever felt stuck, discouraged, or afraid to put your work out into the world, this conversation is for you.

Gabe Leal 1:50

Okay, Heather, thank you so much again for taking the time to do this.

Heather Herington 1:54

Yeah.

Gabe Leal 1:55

I the whole purpose of starting this podcast was that I wanted to help educate new and aspiring podcasters getting into this game on what they're about to face when they get started. Um I'm gonna start out with the question I've asked every other podcast host that I've had on. We're gonna start. This is our our vibe. When you have an idea, you have something or topic I can really dig into, why sit down and say, Let me do a podcast? Why not start with a blog or start with just creating YouTube videos? Why sit down and do the work of doing a whole podcast? Uh I

Sustaining Content in Podcasting

Gabe Leal 2:31

like to hear what other podcasters have to say about it.

Heather Herington 2:33

So unlike a lot of podcasts, wow, I can't talk today. Unlike a lot of podcasters, I did actually start with a blog. But unfortunately, we kind of live in a world where they're in their car, they're doing things, they don't have time to sit down and read an article. I mean, how many times have you looked up a recipe and you're going through these food bloggers and you're like, I really don't care that this was like your Nona's recipe passed down from like seven generations. I just want to know how to air fry salmon correctly. So it started off as a blog just because I've always really loved writing and it was documenting my journey with borderline personality disorder. And when I had first thought that I had it, I Googled it and, you know, got on discussion boards and stuff like that. And this was back in 2018. So it was still very villainized. It's come a long, long way in like eight or nine years. And for that, I am incredibly grateful. At the time, um, it wasn't that wasn't that uh well known, well spoken of. It still isn't, but we're getting somewhere. So this was just documenting my journey in therapy every week, and I was going through DBT group therapy. And uh for those that don't know what DBT is, it's dialectal behavioral therapy, I believe. I probably said the first word wrong, but here we are. Um, and I just kind of went through that. And then I kind of stopped that in 2020 because I wasn't in therapy as much. Also, I was just kind of like evolving, and you know, COVID hit, and I was just like like the rest of the world, tapped out. Fast forward three years. Well, my best friend Justin, um, who has always had more faith in my entire being than I do in my pinky toe. Um my entire body.

Gabe Leal 4:22

You need those people. You need those people though.

Heather Herington 4:24

I I do. I I do because this wouldn't have existed without them. So him and his wife Rose have always been like, you need to start a podcast, you need to start a podcast. I'm like, new. Um, and this was back when podcasting first started taking off. So 2020 through 2023, everyone's like, you need to do it, you need to do it. And I'm like, nah. Fast forward to April, end of March, April. So right around this time, three years ago, I was out in LA visiting uh Justin and his wife Rose and our really good friend Dan. And I was standing in the doorway of Dan's bedroom, and Justin was in there, and we were just like all chit-chatting. And I looked at Justin and I don't know why I asked. I was like, Hey, do you have any mic recommendations? And he was like, You're gonna finally start the podcast. And I'm like, I'm gonna start the podcast. And I really thought it was just gonna be like a quick little thing to like shut

The Art of Pivoting in Podcasting

Heather Herrington 5:13

everyone up. And then I found what I want to do for the rest of my life. So here we are, three years later as of next month. And I find that podcasting one is getting with the times because again, nobody in their car is reading a blog. And if you are, stop doing that. And you know, it just I feel like I can reach more people because, you know, even if you can listen to me like word for word, or if it's a little more background noise because of, you know, neurodivergency or something, it's more accessible. Everyone's on podcasts, everyone's on YouTube. Like that's the new thing that people are doing if they're not listening to like a music playlist. So for me, it felt it's it's kind of evolved over the last three years as to why I do this, but it was really just to reach more people, especially with why I do this in the first place.

Gabe Leal 6:03

I like I like the fact that you said, you know what, I'm gonna go ahead and go do it. People have been bugging me about it. And I I see that a lot. I see that a lot when on social media I will see people say, hey, friends and family said I should start a podcast. And even going about the route you did of starting a blog and then transitioning into doing something like this, it kind of leads me now into the next question about how do you develop enough content material, right, to sustain? Because you can go on any podcast podcasting platform, type in random podcast name, and you will find, you know, endless amounts of podcasts that have, you know, the the the the dreaded four, five, six episode limit where they stop and then and these weren't limited series, these were you know podcasts that people set down, started, and they never get to episode seven, eight, or nine. So how do you develop the content that's gonna find something that's sustainable, especially with a topic or niche like year in? Because there's a lot you have to be able to express when you're talking about a particular subject matter like this.

Heather Herington 7:10

I think the biggest thing is, I mean, the one good thing for me is there are a couple of like things that will never die when it comes to podcasting, that is pop culture and mental health. I think if you do a blog, or not a blog, if you do a podcast on pop culture and what's going on with like, even if you just stick to like a specific channel, like if you just stick to Bravo, there will always be a show. There will always be something pop cultury to chit-chat about. The same with mental health. Mental health is constantly evolving, it is constantly changing. It is, you know, we

Developing a Show Format

Heather Herrington 7:45

are discovering more and more diagnoses every time we turn around, slash finding new treatment options, stuff like that. But I think the big part of why this got started and why I've been able to stick with it so long is I just started with my own story. I started with basically kind of going back off of my old blog posts just for like a little refresher. Spoiler alert, I couldn't find the blog anywhere. Unfortunately, I had to just go from memory. You know, I kind of went back through like the different characteristics and stuff like that. And once I had hit the end of season one, I was like, it can't just be me talking about my journey anymore because I'm not in the thick of it. And that's when I was like, I had to pivot. I had to bring people on, I had to find more guests, I had to find more material. And I think the short way of answering your question is you have to be willing to pivot. That's how you keep your content. You have to be willing to pivot. You have to constantly be moving. It's like waves in an ocean. It's just constantly, you have to constantly be ready for the next wave, ride that next wave. And when that wave is starting to go down, you turn around and you look for the next one. Authenticity, because anyone can just ride a wave and keep going and going and going. But if you have to find something that is very true to yourself and things that you are very passionate about and go with that, and sometimes that means that you're gonna get less views and stuff like that. But at the same time, every big podcaster that I've ever seen interview and stuff like that, like for example, the girls from the toast, it's a it's a big, big podcast now. They have flat out, I was at a forum, I was at uh Dear Media IRL in Austin, Texas a couple of years ago. And they were kind of like the headliners, and they were literally flat out saying, we were nobody's for six years before we made it big. So these big overnight successes, you look back, they've got hundreds of episodes where nobody was listening to them. Nobody, so if like that's the thing, you have to kind of just stay the course because eventually, like you were saying, there's all these podcasts that four or six episodes, like maybe 20, maybe, maybe you see a few that hit a hundred and it just falls off, falls off the track. You have to pivot. You have to be able to ride the wave and anticipate the next one coming in. And you have to be able to understand that those seven loyal listeners for that first year and a half is no, those are those are your rider dies, and those are the people that you're gonna be appreciative of when you hit 700, 7,000, 7, you know, you whatever.

Failing Forward: Learning Through Experience

Heather Herrington 10:18

Those are gonna be the people that you are so grateful for when you're in the thick of it and you're like, seven's not enough. Seven's not seven got you to that 70 and that 700. So you have to like kind of lean into where you are and enjoy the moment kind of deal.

Gabe Leal 10:33

Yeah. So that you hit on a few things that I really want to go into. Number one, this is again, this is this show is intended for the for the new podcaster because I know a lot of the seasoned podcasters out there, they especially once you get into the into the realm of 200, 300 episodes, somewhere around there, you know your flow, you know how everything goes. You're even though you're constantly learning, you're you understand you have to do what you said, you have to pivot. But when you sit down for the first time and you have the idea, you say, Okay, I've I've got my content now. One of the things that I really want to uh question how you set up for you, but how do you sit down and say, This is gonna be my show format? Because a lot of podcasters go, I don't know where to start. Yeah, I got a great microphone now, right? I might have this, but how do I format what I'm gonna present that will eventually, even if you might start out with two or three listeners, will eventually be able to gain traction because that that that's another one that I see a lot of podcasters who don't quite understand. Like, hey, am I doing a solo show? Am I doing an interview show? Am I doing, you know, a uh series of of us of the subject matter, or yeah, even like in the case that you know that you you mentioned there was you know, you have to understand that maybe your content is gonna have to shift at some point. So how do you format your show to say, okay, uh I think I can do this in a way that's gonna be manageable? Because for most podcasters, we are starting out, we have other jobs, we have other careers, we have other things in our lives that'll be, again, maintainable to keep recording and doing these things over and over and over again. So, what is that like? How was that for Heather? And what would you express to any other new podcasters, podcasters who might be sitting down thinking about starting theirs tomorrow?

Heather Herington 12:16

Two words, and I'll give it context, but fail forward. It's very much a I'm I'm 120 episodes in and I'm still, you know, I finally have an outro that I've used for the last like five episodes, maybe, that I'm just like, you know, it's the tagline I used when I was streaming on TikTok. Let's let's put it on the you know, the podcast so that people know that the episode's ending because I would it would just kind of end. And then I'm like, no, I need to give people like a like a sign-off kind of thing. Um an intro, you know, do do your prep work when you're doing guests, when you're doing a solo, you know, you just kind of try different things

The Role of Active Listening

Heather Herrington 12:53

until you find something that works. Because, you know, what's gonna work for me is there's gonna be somebody that listens that's gonna be like, I would never in a million years do it that way. But, you know, and I know that because I've heard some people's systems and I'm like, no, but it's it's what works for them. But also guesting on other podcasts help you kind of figure out what works for you as well because you actually get to see in real time how people are doing things, whether you have a guest form, whether you, you know, decide to do a prep call. Because for me, the prep calls are huge. Some people love to do their research on a guest and go in, I guess, quote unquote, blind and do almost like a cold episode and just go from there. I have too much anxiety. So for me, it's like we're doing a prep call. We're doing a 30-minute call real quick where we can kind of go over ideas. You know, what about the guest is completely off limits for them because we're talking mental health. You know, it's a little bit easier if you're just like getting somebody on talking pop culture. And I'm not saying that's easy at all, but I'm saying it's a little, there's a little less prep in it. But with mental health, it's like you have to make sure that certain things are, you know, absolute no-gos. Like for me, my personal absolute no-gos are we are not talking about my guest kids in detail at all. We can gloss over it, but I'm not getting into somebody's minor children's life. You know, that's they're not old enough to consent, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I also know that if my parents had talked about me on a podcast and I heard it a few years later, would not have gone over well. So, you know, it's just for me, I really like those prep calls where I can sit, I can break the ice, I can just chit-chat with somebody, get their vibe so I can figure out what kind of host I'm gonna be for that episode. Do I need to be a little more serious? Can I be a little more, you know, sarcastic in myself? Or do I need to, you know, if somebody's a little more religious and I have clocked that, do I limit the amount of cussing I do and or just don't do it at all? You know, is it somebody that I'm not gonna care if there's like an F-bomb or two thrown, like no big? And so for me, those prep calls are huge for my preparation and my my success for an episode. But also somebody may think of a prep call and go, that's a lot of work. I don't have that kind of schedule. That's fine. But for me, that's what works.

Gabe Leal 15:10

Yeah. And,

Editing: Finding the Right Balance

Gabe Leal 15:11

you know, you you made mention of this, and we've had I've had other podcast hosts come on that yes, the validation system really does help in developing whether or not, hey, this guest would be great to come on. There's there's a great chemistry there, there's a lot that we can, you know, we'll be able to express or talk about because I've also heard the horror stories of other podcasters who I've had on. They were like, I just had this guy on on a blind invite that somebody, you know, made a recommendation about. And it was the worst. You know, it would the conversation didn't flow at all. He was a jerk, she was an you know, just whatever that really made it uncomfortable. So you do make mention, and I and I like the fact that you do this, especially in the genre that you're doing, because in some different different areas and niches that you're gonna be creating podcasts, yeah, it's gonna be important to know that your person that you're having, your expert or your subject matter expert you're having on really knows what they're talking about. This was easier for me because I've had a I had a track record of all the podcasters I've had on. There was a reason that I asked for a certain amount because I had a catalog to go back and say, okay, they've they've done this. I've heard them, I can go back and listen to them. I don't need to sit down and have a 30-minute sit-down. I can hear you know the the you know the the hundred hours that they've spent doing this. I trust in that in that process for them. But having new people on, that's gonna be different. And I like the fact that you may mention that because there's some people that don't. I'm gonna tell you, there's podcasters I wouldn't believe said, I don't have a guest validation system, I just have them on, and we have conversation, and I go, I've done that. That's kind of scary.

Heather Herington 16:49

I learned that the hard way. There are about four or five episodes that will never see the light of day because even with vetting them, the things that came out while recording, I was like, nope. You know, and it actually has nothing to do with politics, it has everything to do with some of their viewpoints on like humanity as a whole. That I was just like, like I I, you know, fitness coaches, fitness coaches are very, they they they have a very thin line. And yeah, there were a couple that were on that was like, I can't post that because I can't believe you're saying that about your clients. And I don't want to be associated with that. So you you learn, you learn very quickly, like to trust what you see on people's social media before you have them on, you know, and stuff like that. But yeah, those prep calls are a lifesaver, especially if you're a newbie podcaster and you just trust that everyone's like, you know, gonna come on and sound fantastic. But then you also, it's also good for like breaking the ice with people. Some people have a lot of anxiety about being on. So if you break the ice with them and they feel like they know you before

Authenticity in Podcasting

Heather Herington 17:50

they come on, you're gonna get more than three-word answers out. Or you've got the ones that sound amazing on paper, but you're getting them on a prep call and they're like, I'm good. So yeah, we can talk about that. And you're just like, I'm not gonna know this is not gonna be nails on a chalkboard for 15 minutes. I'm sorry, you're wonderful on paper, but this is just not gonna work moving forward.

Gabe Leal 18:08

So that that makes mention of another thing, too, that we talk about here on the show. Prior to doing this, did you have a any kind of background in say doing interviewing or doing anything along these lines? Or was it a skill that you had to develop as you went along? Because we do have people that come on and like, hey, I was in radio five years before I started podcasting. So yeah, it was generally it was okay for them to hop in into a medium like this, but for some people it's like I knew nothing. Yeah. So what was that like for when you started?

Speaker 3 18:39

I was a certified yapper. I was the kid that just didn't stop talking, which is great for solo episodes, not so great when you have a guest and you have to shut up. So I've really honed in on my active listening skills. But when it leave it. Sorry, hang on. Leave it. Thank you. Um when I I just had zero experience with that other than I just like to talk. I get hang on, I lost my turn of thought. I'm so sorry. I don't want to say this.

Gabe Leal 19:05

No, take your time. That's the magic of editing.

Heather Herington 19:07

She's an angel nine times out of ten. Today's the one out of ten she decides to be.

Gabe Leal 19:10

Oh, don't worry, don't worry. Trust me. I have my dog, I had to put him away because he when I record with him in here, he's uh he can be a menace.

Heather Herington 19:19

She's usually right here or right on her chair and doesn't move. So we're gonna lose our office privileges, I feel, just for a couple days. So so uh honestly, overall, I didn't really have any experience other than I was de I did theater. I guess that was my only experience. I did theater for a few years. So being on stage and being in front of people and having to, you know, improv on a dime and you know, dealing with if you've been in theater, you know that something on the set won't work. Somebody forgets their lines. You have to ad lib because somebody said their line wrong. You know, so you learn those quick thinking, like pivot on a dime. I keep saying pivot, I'm like Ross from Fronts. You just you just learn to improv and be more impromptu and kind of take anything that's gonna come at you because again, the the play can be a whole thing and something always goes wrong. There's there's never been a show that I've done in my life that went perfectly ever. There's always been something. So for me, this is my stage now. This is where things could go really, really well and it's minimal editing, or things can go really wrong, you know, like it did in earlier seasons before, you know, I got my dog trained where she would just bark and bark and bark, and I'd have to mute my mic and you know, try to get her to calm down. And I had to cut a ton because she was just, you know, losing her mind. Now it's a lot easier, and nine times out of ten, she's chill. But, you know, those were this is kind of my stage now. But that's really my only experience is doing a lot of theater in middle and high school.

Gabe Leal 20:57

So you you essentially had to learn on the fly and then what you may mention of the active listening part, right? There's a lot of people who get into this and they're like, Yeah, hey, you know what? I can talk for hours. Great. Again, like you said, solo show, no worries. Right. But when you're doing an interview show, it is learning the back and forth of allowing to to me, that's the big part of what this show is about because I want to be able to extract as much as I can from the guests. So you said that you know, the minimal editing thing. I I really want to touch on that as well because there's always different approaches for podcasters when they get started into this. I've had podcasters on like, it is a religion, you should edit out all the ums, ahs, and everything else. And I've had others that editing, what's that? Um, you know. So um what was that like when you started doing this to say, hey, look, um I'm either going to spend a lot of time editing or this is not gonna work. I need to do as little much as I possibly can and spend the time in the work to maybe do it on the front end so that you don't have so much to do once you You're done recording.

Heather Herington 22:01

Yeah. So that's actually a really great question because I feel like everyone has a different opinion on editing and also feels really strongly about that opinion on editing.

Gabe Leal 22:12

Yes, they do.

Heather Herington 22:13

But when I first started, I was the one that cut out every um, every every I I was audio only for the first two or three seasons. And I would export the file into Audacity and then zoom in on the file, and I mean cut out every single micro silence. Like I over-edited and for my own sanity, I started being like, you know what? No. So I leave a certain amount of silences in there. I will say uh I use I use Riverside to uh do my podcast. And that's been really great to help with the minimal editing because you cut out like a certain amount of, I think it's like a second and a half of silence or more, that cuts it out. I mean, you can go all the way down to half a second, but I'm just like, no, I want there to be some, I want it to feel like a conversation and not a like, you know, long TikTok you're watching on two times speed where it's like ding ding ding ding ding. So for me, I just kind of hit a point where, well, one editing's the bane of my existence. I hate editing. Anytime there's a point that I have to actually go in and edit, I'm just like, God hates me, but little dramatic. But you know, it's I just I hate editing. My post-production, I would rather be pulling clips and you know, stuff like that. I so for me, I got really lucky with using Riverside. And I feel like this is a total plug for Riverside, but also I feel very strongly about Riverside as a whole, as a podcasting platform, and I'm sure we'll get into that. But it just, if you I heard from a lot of people, I really love your authenticity. I love that it doesn't seem super clean, super this, super that. And the reason I was over-editing to begin with is because I was literally saying my first three sentences on a microphone for the first time in my life and trying to sound like call her daddy and Joe Rogan and these people that have production teams and you know, perfect lighting and perfect this and perfect that, and people that it's actually their full-time

The Journey of Podcasting: Embracing Imperfection

Heather Herington 24:09

job to do these things. And I'm just like, why am I why am I trying to sound like them right out the gate? Everyone, and I'm telling you right now, everyone is gonna look back on their first few episodes, and then once they hit like 200 episodes, look at their hundredth episode and 300 looking at their 200. Like you just evolve so much that no matter what, no matter how good you try to make your first few episodes sound, you are gonna look back and go, that is the trashiest podcast episode I've ever heard in my life. You just are, because you don't know what you're doing. So my thing was minimal editing, one for my own sanity, two, so that it sounded like an authentic, non-perfect conversation, especially when you're working in mental health. You don't want it to sound too perfect, you don't want it to sound too like scrubbed up and stuff. You want to hear the emotion, you want to hear people, you know, not that I take like joy in other people's like pain, but you want to hear that emotion because that's what's gonna bring your listeners in, like, oh my God, that person's getting emotional over that. I thought I was being dramatic. I am no longer feeling dramatic. I feel validated. And right then and there is why I do this thing in the first place. So it's selfishly, I edit as little as possible so that I don't throw my computer, but also I feel like it gives a more genuine take on who I am as a person and who my guest is as a person, because that 45 minutes is probably close to the only time that a lot of listeners are gonna have an impression of that guest, and I want it to be the most authentic them impression that I can get or get from.

Gabe Leal 25:36

No, that and that's you you worded it perfectly because when it comes to sitting down and say, I want to do editing or I don't want to do editing, right? You're gonna find different schools of thought from different podcasters. You're again, you if you go to any potential podcasting school, look they're yeah, they're gonna hammer down on you need to edit this out, you need to get this out. But then what you made mention of too is that comparatively a lot of podcasters probably have this idea in their head. They've heard the, you know, they've heard the Joe Rogan's, they've hauled they've heard all the baker shows. And yeah, they want to model their idea on formatting how they're gonna do their show after that. But yeah, they have teams, they have tons of hours, they have people who can do all this stuff for them to make it sound very professional. You in the beginning, it is gonna be terrible. I'm sorry, it's it's it's gonna be terrible. You're gonna go back and go what was I thinking? And that's okay. But that but the fact that you sat down and

Choosing the Right Tools: Software for Success

Gabe Leal 26:36

did it for a hundred episodes to go back and go listen, that that is part of the development and the growth. And that's the idea of wanting to do this, is because I don't want podcasters to run into this idea that I have to have this perfect product to push out because that's the thing that everybody wants or in their head, they think that's what they want to listen to. But it is it is the authenticity, the realness that that really draws in people to keep them coming back and wanting to listen more and saying, This is great. I've learned so much, I want to come back next week when they release another episode. So I I love your approach to it. And for any new podcasters listening, remember that if you've listened to prior episodes, the reason is you're gonna get a vast array of perspective. And the thing that we want most of our new listeners to understand is that you don't have to think there's a right or wrong way that this path is gonna work for you. What has worked for Heather, what has worked for Kurt, what has worked for Janaide and all the other people that I've had on may not work for you. But maybe the process of but the process that you said of uh cutting back a little bit more on things like saying I don't maybe have to spend four hours on a 15-minute piece of content. Um that the that the ROI is not um gonna be worth it if you're thinking about it in those terms. Um I wanted to talk about another thing you made mention of. Uh you're see, this is why I like having podcasters on and they they lead you into everything. I don't have to hardly do any work. I'm just here like a vessel.

Heather Herington 28:06

Also, why I love them. Exactly.

Gabe Leal 28:08

So you made mention of Riverside. Uh I also like to sit down and talk about the different types of softwares that you can that are out there on the market that you can record with. I've you um we're using can't you guys can't see it. If you aren't, you know that we're using Riverside to record. But there are other softwares out there to sit down and record with. What were some of the things that you looked into when you were starting, as opposed to as you started to evolve to say, I need an easier process and workflow for recording? Because it can be difficult if you're just gonna sit down and say, I can just record it from my phone. You know, that's what a lot of podcasters or these gurus will tell you sometimes. Just start with your phone. Great. But then there comes a point where the phone only has a limitation you can extend upon before you have to say, okay, now I gotta sit down and I'm really doing this. I'm already recorded 30 episodes. It's time that I develop a system so I can start using for recording. What again, what were some of the things that you looked into and what were some of the the uh reasons that you chose a software like Riverside? Because I'm gonna doing a separate show, just talking about all the softwares I'm talking about. StreamYard, stream, eGam, um using Riverside. There, there's a multitude that you're gonna be able to find. A lot of them have a lot of great features that they're adding. But what was that thought process for for you when you said, you know what, I'm gonna settle on this one?

Heather Herington 29:34

Yeah, so after so season one, I was just recording straight into Spotify, and this was back when you could record straight into Spotify, so you know, before the dinosaurs. But so I that feels like so long ago, because I think it was like a year and a half ago, that they're like, Yeah, we're teaming up with Riverside, and you know, you can figure it out. But I had for season two, this is back when I was doing seasons and not doing regular episodes. For season two, I knew I wanted more guests. So for me, my holy trinity of software in general, and that includes not only like how I record, edit, all of that, but also how I'm finding guests is Podmatch, Threads, Riverside. And honestly, Threads is beating up PodMatch by a long shot right now, which at at the time pod match really got my start on guests. It really, really did. Now I feel like I post anything on threads, and I'm, you know, getting to the point where I, like you and a couple other podcasters, I'm gonna need a form to start weeding through people. Hey, look, my I've made it. Um, but Riverside for me, you got a lot of features and it was relatively cheap, honestly. And to this day, I still feel like for the amount you pay and the features that you get, when I'm comparing, because there have been a couple of times that I've tried to jump ship from Riverside, and I've been like, you know what, I'm gonna use StreamYard or I'm gonna use Buzz Pro, I'm gonna use, you know, one of these. And when you're looking at the features and then you're looking at the price point, in my opinion, which I cannot say more, my opinion, I feel that Riverside is the best bang for your buck. The features that you're getting versus the price point that you're paying. I'm I'll be fully transparent. I pay for the $30 a month plan, which seems like a lot, except for that comes with the, you know, the AI editing. And as much as I will still go through and make sure that everything's edited the way I want it to, you know, just being able to take out those silences. And then that also has a feature that it'll mark something that's like, you may not like this may seem a little like they'll mark it if I don't mark it, because there's certain times where I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna have to edit that. And I just mark the clip really quick, which is also super helpful for, you know, an editing process. So you don't have to go back through and go, where was that part where I, you know, hated what I said, so I repeated myself, that kind of thing. Also, you can like mark a clip for something that if your guest is saying something really profound and you're like that right there, that's what I want to be the clip. But also, they will pull the magic clips. So they'll pull clips for you so that all you have to do is kind of go through and sometimes, sometimes it miss the mark a little bit. Sometimes I'm like, none of this makes sense. I don't really like you're you're always trying to find that one one-minute clip that gives like the entire encapsulation of a 45-minute episode, which by the way is impossible. Don't be me. But but you still try, you still try every single time. So, you know, it pulls the clips for you, and then I go in and I edit it how I want. I make sure the captions are correct, I make sure that you know the layouts right, you know, but it also gives you the option for the different layouts that you want and you can kind of brand your stuff. And if you've ever used Canva, you know that that branding kit part is a godsend, even though I have a love-hate relationship with Canva, you know. So I really feel like, and then the biggest thing that I'm noticing for me is the personalization of the episode descriptions because I'm like, I want witty, I want sarcastic, I want me, you know, and it goes through, and again, I take the chunk, I edit it so that, you know, it says what I want it to say because I'm not gonna use the six paragraphs that it gives me. I'm gonna whittle it down to like one paragraph or add in some stuff because again, my big thing is AI is a tool, it is not a solution. You know, I think my my biggest fear with Chat GPT as a millennial is in about 25 to 30 years, nobody's gonna have an original thought, but that's that's a day for another episode. You

Promoting Your Podcast: Strategies for Growth

Heather Herington 33:26

know, I asked I asked Chat GPT if I should eat breakfast this morning. Are you hungry? Then eat it. Um, but you know, some people, again, it's a tool, not a solution, but I really feel like Riverside, for what I pay, it is well worth the $30 a month. And they are constantly adding on new, new features. And their chat is or their their like help people are always cannot think of the their agents are always super freaking helpful. And I am not a techie person. And when I tell you I actually can use this with ease, I'm not kidding. Like if you hided me a Samsung phone right now, I'd be like, How the hell do you use this? And I know this because my sister has an Android, and I'm always like, I'm sorry, how do you find this thing? I'm an iPhone girl until I kick it. But for me, I feel like Riverside is incredibly user-friendly, incredibly helpful. It has a ton of features. And, you know, I just feel like for what I pay, it does a lot of things for me that make that post-production seamless. I don't want to say effortless because again, there are some times where I have to completely fix an audio out of nowhere that I'm just like, why? But, you know, because it's technology, it's not going to be perfect. But the amount I have to fix it is very minimal compared to the amount of times I just go in and I make sure everything looks good on the episode. And then I can just export it. And now I host on Riverside, which is even better because now I can just send my stuff straight to YouTube instead of manually uploading. Absolute like 10 out of 10 on that one.

Gabe Leal 34:52

Game changer. If you don't know the struggle, game changer.

Heather Herington 34:55

If you don't know the struggle.

Gabe Leal 34:56

So you I love that too, that you you know, using a tool like this that is have that has a lot of inclusive ways for you to now what we're gonna move into, the distribution part, right? You sat down, you recorded, you had the content, you had the guests on. It was a great conversation. You edited everything together, you think this is a great episode. Now, how do you push it out into the to the sphere of different social medias, different distribution channels? How do you go about promoting your episodes and your podcast? Because I think those those are those are important as well. I mean, you if you want to build attraction, you build audience. Part of it is, yeah, you're gonna have to learn how to become a promoter and a marketer. So, what is that like for you? What is that process for Heather?

Heather Herington 35:38

As someone who absolutely loaths the idea of social media, I decided to pick a career that is completely dependent on social media for it to be successful. So, you know, I it's fine. But what my biggest thing is Instagram reels. So a very wise person, Alan Lazarus from NLU University, once told me you pick your three, your three social media platforms and you get really, really good at those. You don't have to do all of them. I think I have one YouTube short. One. I've gotten good at Instagram reels, TikToks, and I actually need to post the podcast a little bit more on TikTok. TikTok's more of like my fun space, but but it also boosted me as a content creator because I knew the platform had to get out. So I was streaming on TikTok, like promoting the podcast, promoting the podcast. And that's honestly why it is where it is today. It's changed a lot since the shutdown when it comes to reach and stuff like that. And it's just, you know, now it's just for funsies and not for like any kind of income-based anything. But TikTok, Instagram Reels, and then if you have a podcast, make yourself a Facebook page, not a group. A group is good for like creating a community, especially if you're in the more mental health or entrepreneurship or that kind of thing. Like, yes, create that Facebook group because that's gonna make people feel closer to you. You're gonna feel closer to your people. That's also how you can kind of get your listener feedback and figure out what's working and what doesn't, because that's where I heard from a lot of people like, hey, you're getting kind of surface level. And I'm like, noted. But that Facebook group or Facebook page. Like, I know people are like, oh, I'm, you know, I'm just a small podcaster. I just started, like, I'm not, you know, this big influencer. Like, why would I do a Facebook page? Just do the damn Facebook page and make sure your stuff is sent on there. Post, post, post. It like, I know it sounds redundant. You're gonna get comments at Thanksgiving about how you think you're an influencer or you think you're this or that. They're not doing much of anything either. So just like just post because eventually there's gonna be that one post that starts that traction and you're gonna be doing this for a year to a year and a half before you see anything, literally anything. And you just have to keep staying the course. So as long as you're consistent and you have your big three that you can consistently post on at least once a week, be posting on your stories daily, even if it's just uh checking in, like a call to action, like, oh, I've been feeling pretty like down today. What's your mood been this week? You know, that kind of thing. Like, even if nobody, trust me, I am still in the spot where like I get maybe one person that responds to my call to action, you just keep it up because eventually more people are gonna respond, you know, and ask me anything. Do you know how many ask me anything I've done on Instagram where I got zip? It happens, you know. You just you keep going. You pretend that you belong at the table that you're trying to be at, and a lot changes.

Gabe Leal 38:31

Yes. Right. And that's the thing that for most of the people that I've had on is that it is the it is for new podcasters getting into it, the understanding that this is a long game. Such a long game. If you're looking for the immediate turnover results and you're expecting an ROI right away, just because you spent, you know, $5,000 on equipment and lighting and everything's great, you might have even hired a social media team. You're not gonna get that kind of attraction unless you're already a a known quantity or a celebrity, or somebody that's already have an existing following into moving something. And even those aren't guaranteed that you're gonna find the sustainable success that everybody thinks I can sit down behind a microphone. I am the one. Like it it's it's a long game. And all the all the uh podcasters that I've had on, they're they're they're you know, they they tell you, I I feel like I didn't hit my stride until like I was into episode 200. And that's cool. People at Floors people, they're like, what? 200 episodes before you find a stride.

Heather Herington 39:31

It's like Yep. I am just starting to find it at 120 episodes in.

Gabe Leal 39:36

Yeah.

Heather Herington 39:36

Just starting to find it. And I've been doing this for almost three years. You it takes a really long time to find your groove, find your consistency level, find the thing, find your worth it kind of deal. But also, like you were saying with like the celebrity thing, like for having a podcast as a celebrity, but even having a celebrity guest on, unless that 1000% coincides with the niche that you're in, it's not gonna do too much for your numbers. Like that particular episode may see higher numbers, but overall, it's not gonna, I have gone viral three times on TikTok, and I mean over 1 million views viral. That has done jack shit for my numbers. Pardon my French. It has done not much. It's done more in like followers. Like I got 3,000 followers from it. But if you think about it, I've got I've had a total of let's say five million views on all of these and only an increase of 3,000 followers.

Gabe Leal 40:30

Yeah.

Heather Herington 40:30

You know? And then the engagement and stuff like that. Like everyone thinks that their big viral moment is gonna be their big moment. And really, it's what you do with it. Because unfortunately, when you hit that viral moment, you have to have the level of everything that goes with that viral moment. And not everybody has it. I know I don't. I know I don't. So for me, it's like, yes, having these bigger guests is like mind blowing. Like, what do you mean you want to talk to me? But I also have learned and continue to learn and just know that that's not

Finding Your Voice: The Evolution of Content

Heather Herington 41:01

gonna be my big podcast break. It's gonna be like I talked about earlier in the episode, like the girls of the toast, where you're building your foundation from the ground up because if you do have that viral moment that makes your podcast big for a minute, you have to sustain that. And that's really hard to do. You want that, you know. We listened to the tortoise and the hair as a kid, you know, everyone did. Everyone knows that story. We just thought it was a fable, like something of, oh, you know, and then you get into an industry like podcasting, like you and me, where you realize you have to be the freaking tortoise, and all of a sudden it's just not a fun story we knew as kids.

Gabe Leal 41:32

Right. Like, even you made mention this is what I you made mention early in the in the interview, like you just started using an outro, and you've been you've been doing it for three years. I I like I I I had somebody that was into episode 1200, and he was like, he's been he'd been doing this since 20 and 12. Like he'd started like right when podcasting was getting started, and he's like, I just started using a guest vetting system three years ago, and I go, Oh my, like three years ago, but it's insane. But it took that long to figure out, like going through, and these are the unspoken things that that I want new podcasters to understand. They come in and listen, this is what you should be drawing from knowledge, right? Yeah, the technical stuff. Yes, I'm gonna talk about all the technical stuff too, because those are the questions that arise first. The first one there, what might do I have all that stuff comes first. But then there's the small ancillary things like what you just made mention of. What is my foundation? Do I have you know what if I do go viral two months in? Is that gonna be sustainable? Because do I have everything developed, right? It's no it it takes time. And I'm sorry, guys, if you're trying to bypass or hack the system, you'll learn that's not how it's gonna work. If it does, you might find the rare cases they again, they are the exception, they are not the rule to do here as podcasters. So this is the fun part. This is the fun part, Helen, that I I love to get to talk about too, is that what's going on for you now that you're you know you've 120

Opening Up: The Balance of Sharing Personal Stories

Gabe Leal 43:03

episodes in, you've you've made a lot, you've made a transition in in pivoting how you approach your content. What do you see for the next hopefully hundred episodes for um for your show?

Heather Herington 43:15

I really just see now that I am kind of going back to my roots of why I started this, you know, if you again, this is the fun thing, you're gonna get lost in what you're doing sometimes. Like I have loved every single meditation coach that I've had on, but it's also not really what I wanted to focus on. And I had to take a hard look in the mirror and be like, okay, I need to bring it back to I want other people's like deep, unfiltered stories. And in doing that, unfortunately, you cut out a lot of like pod people, but you're more, you're more comfortable with yourself. So I think the fun and it and it is fun. Like when you really get that light bulb moment of no, this is the direction, it's so freaking fun because it feels like the biggest like weight off your shoulders and you're Like now I get to have fun with this. Now I get to really do what I want to do and you know move forward. So I think the next hundred episodes, you're gonna see a hundred more stories of people that have been through it and saw the other side or are working on seeing the other side. And that is why I started this because I have always said if I reach one person that said, I feel seen, I feel heard, I feel understood, I could stop podcasting tomorrow and be completely happy.

Gabe Leal 44:30

I love that. So have you ever thought it's just you know, thinking out loud, oh yeah, taking these experiences and you know, seeing how that you did start out writing a blog. Have you ever thought about going back to either doing that or writing a book or taking these experiences, what you've learned from the stories of others to kind of help develop and share a little bit more about your story too, because it that's part of it too, as a podcaster. Yeah.

Heather Herington 44:54

Opening up about I keep getting crap from people that I need to um start opening up about myself a little more. And I think I it's the people pleaser and like the eldest daughter in me that I just I want other stories to be first and not you know, not focus on my own, but also like I've been doing a lot of healing in the last couple of years of coming to terms with my story as a whole. And sometimes that actually makes it less fun to talk about because I'm like, I'm in a good place with like this person that caused me that trauma. So talking about it as much as like it would help people, it's like, is it going to help me? So I have to kind of, you know, is it gonna help my relationship with that person that we're cool now? Do I really want to go back there? So for me, I think I definitely want to do more solo episodes and more episodes that are more me, because that's the thing. People are like, we don't know anything about you. And I'm like, I mean, you do just the fun parts. So I think you will definitely see more solo from me and stuff like that. Like I've, you know, massively opened up about how I became disabled and all of my medical, surgical stuff with that. So that was like a big one that was terrifying, going with a story of that because that's a big one. We have a huge disability community in the US and around the world. And I have a voice. I should be speaking out on it more and talking about the complications and the things that I'm but again, it's like I'm working on that myself because I have so much respect for my guests that hop on a mic and are just like, yeah, here's all of my shit out in the open. Because it's really hard for me to do that sometimes. You know, I can do it when I'm like angry or I feel a little more righteous and I'm like, hell yeah, we're gonna get on the mic and we're gonna talk. And then I think about it and I'm like, you know, so we're working on more getting myself out there more and uh, you know, getting on par with my guests. But for now, we're we're still a work in progress with that one.

Gabe Leal 46:48

Hey, and there's nothing wrong with that. That that's again, that's part of the journey. If it comes the time to if it comes the time down that path and you're like, okay, now's the time to open up about it.

Heather Herington 46:59

Exactly.

Gabe Leal 46:59

And of course it will, but you know, at least it's it's just thought because I have all these I have all the podcasters who come on, and to me, that's part of the story too, is that a lot of them will highlight their guests, you know, they will highlight people come on and express, and they're you know, seeing people come on and being able to share their vulnerabilities like that. That to me that's kind of a strength. But as also as a host, you do have that strength as well. And I and try to encourage other hosts to say, you know, you are part of this program, and you know, part of the reason that people tune in a lot, yeah, it might be the guest, might be the topic, but it is you as well.

Heather Herington 47:38

It's so hard to remember that as a host sometimes because you're like, I'm just a vessel for other people's stories, and then people are like, that's great, but like, what about you? And you're like, what about me?

Gabe Leal 47:49

Right. You you tell them like how you doing today, and like, I'm fine. As a host, that would drive you nuts. You're like, How you doing today? And your guest is like, I'm fine.

Heather Herington 47:59

Right. It's like I'm I'm I I am my own worst guest, and most hosts are.

Gabe Leal 48:06

Look, that's part of that's part of what I've done for myself as a as a host myself, is that I knew I had to start sharing me. Um I started doing this 2018, and it was hey, I I had so many great guests on, but then I started to have people who would say, We like it too when you just talk about yourself. And I'm like, really? Okay.

Heather Herington 48:33

Right. I don't think I'm that interesting.

Gabe Leal 48:36

Exactly. But you are. There's more to it. Okay. Thank you, Heather. I do appreciate you taking the time, all the all the all the gratitude in the world, and I will be reaching out to you once we get closer to scheduling these things, because uh I have I I did it, I did an insane thing where I recorded like 25 people like within a I've done that.

Heather Herington 48:59

Yep.

Gabe Leal 49:00

And you know, I did over I did overwhelm myself with a lot of it, but hitting a tail end of the recording part of this part, and now uh it's gonna be like putting them out, and I have enough now timeline, flexible timeline for myself to now start being able to push out a little bit more on the technical side because what you've shared today. Okay, thank you, Heather. All right, thanks.

Heather Herington 49:24

Bye-bye.

AI Outro 49:25

Bye. If today's conversation reminded you that every creator starts somewhere, make sure to follow the show and subscribe wherever you're listening. And if you connected with Heather's story, you can check out her podcast, Hot Mess Espresso, on both Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also follow Heather and the show on Instagram at Hotmess.espresso and at Heather. One of the biggest takeaways from this episode is that growth doesn't come from waiting until you feel ready. It comes from being willing to learn publicly, create imperfectly, and keep showing up anyway. Because nobody starts polished, and every creator you admire once sounded like a beginner too. Thanks for listening to Podcast About Podcasting with Gabe L. And remember, your first version doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to exist. We'll see you in the next episode.

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