How to Grow a Podcast Using A Storytelling Strategy with Walter Gainer II

Introduction to Podcasting and Its Purpose

SPEAKER_00 0:00

The Podcasting Morning Show is your morning meetup where podcasting needs purpose and creativity. Sparking connection. Hosted by Mark Ronick with two decades of experience and elevated by a team comprised of award-winning podcasters, accomplished entrepreneurs and producers, and podcast hosts with years of experience. Together, they form the backbone of the podcasting morning chat. Diving into the nuts and bolts of content creation, sharing real-life challenges, solutions, and success stories. Streaming live every weekday at 8 a.m. Eastern Standard Time from Clubhouse, yes, Clubhouse, and available as a podcast just a couple of hours later, the show has evolved into a go-to resource for content creators worldwide. Imagine a mastermind group's collaborative spirit combined with the engaging vibe of a Morning Drive radio show. That's what we're all about. Learn more at www.podcasting morningshow.com.

SPEAKER_04 0:57

Walter Gaynor the Second is a storytelling content strategist and host of the Working While Black Show, a podcast designed to help professionals like him navigate the workforce on their own. He launched his first show, Boss Locks, to prove that natural hair and professionalism coexist. More than 50 episodes in, he builds intentional community, one carefully vetted conversation at a time. He did not start a podcast to grow an audience. He started one to prove something, which changed the shape of his career and his life. In this episode, he makes the case for why audio builds the kind of trust and access that no other medium replicates. What it actually means to go from hobbyist to professional in this space, and why your insecurities might be the most underused asset in your content strategy. You will walk away with a clearer picture of what podcasting is actually building in you and a reason to stop waiting. Let's learn more from Walter.

SPEAKER_05 1:58

All right, everybody. Thank you so much for joining me. We got another great episode lined up. I have a gentleman who I'm thrilled to talk about with. So, welcome to the show, Mr. Walter Gaynor the second. Thank you for joining me. I do appreciate it.

The Journey of Starting a Podcast

SPEAKER_05 2:12

We're going to start quickly because these interviews, I want to be action-packed and filled with as much information and value as I can get. All right, let's do it. I wanted to ask the first question. This is what I ask of all my guests that I've had on so far when it comes to the subject matter is why should you start a podcast?

SPEAKER_03 2:30

I think that answer is going to be different for everybody. But for me, when it comes to content in general, I like to suggest that people follow what they enjoy and what they feel works best for them. I see and have conversations with lots of people who see all these like big name personalities, get huge deals and opportunities, and also people who were unknown end up coming on a come up, like people who end up becoming part of Insecure's whole marketing rollout with their companion podcast. So there's lots of like signs that are like, oh, podcasting is the way to get to the bag and all this stuff. But it is truly a labor of love. Some people strike gold immediately, some people they are mining in the wrong coal mine and they never really see. I don't know where gold is, but whatever the gold is, like whatever mountain it's in, sometimes it's hard. You don't really know where it is. So I truly think you should only start one if you actually enjoy podcasting.

SPEAKER_05 3:23

Yes. And I love that answer, right? It's it's a it's not a again, it's not a one size fits all thing, right? The why that usually most people begin with, some, like you said, of the motivation is hey, I'm gonna get the bag. I want I want the I want to go chase, you know, the metrics, the the the the opportunity that might come with that. And then others, it is uh it is a labor of love. It is a lot of work that goes into that. So I want to start with the first question. You described yourself as a storytelling content strategist who helps build, who helps brands build. You know, that's very specific to what creating a podcast and you know, talking about your content. Want me back at the beginning of of your podcast, which is uh Boss Locks. What was the real reason you pressed record and what happened? What what did you not expect to come out of doing this? Like starting your own, you're starting your own show, and what have you seen that uh have become benefits that you see that are advantageous to what you're doing now in your in the in the business side of what you're doing as a creator? And then what are some of the downfalls that a new beginner may not have the angle or perspective on?

SPEAKER_03 4:26

One downfall is uh podcasting can be a very inexpensive inexpect inexpensive. It could be a very inexpensive pack. It's so easy to get caught up thinking that you need the best, this, the best, that, the highest quality of X, Y, and Z. I first started with a $20 mic from Amazon, and I was filming with like this iPad mini that I won on a sweepstick. But I started because one, I really enjoyed listening to podcasts. This podcast called Startup was one that I was very fascinated by. It took you on this whole audio journey, this adventure of him literally starting a business and recording all these conversations and sharing it with us. Everything from conversations he was having with the VCs to problems he was having later on with like managing people and like establishing an HR and all this stuff. And I was always interested in business and entrepreneurship, but it was really the stories that kept me more than anything. And when it was time for me to start, I had already enjoyed creating content. I was doing a lot with Snapchat while I was in college. I would like go to parties and just have random conversations with people. I uh I had started a Facebook page, a whole kind of like media brand for my college. And then in addition to that, I had a very strong intention to build a whole YouTube channel that was all around social media. And so video was like a very big thing for me. But while I was in school, I took this journalism class and I learned just how easy it was to create an audio podcast. And I think that as I was getting ready to launch something, I was very intimidated by all of these different uh mediums to create content. But there was something about the audio that made me feel a little bit more safer. And I was creating a podcast that honestly I didn't really have a plan to create. It was Boss Locks, a story of new growth, and it was all focused on proving that natural hair and professionalism do coexist. And I only did it because I was having conversations with people who were helping me to feel more confident as I was like navigating job interviews after college and also feeling more confident about just continuing to look for jobs without cutting my locks, which a lot of people were encouraging me to do. I didn't want to, so it was me looking for people who had done what I want to do, kind of done the impossible, kind of, and how they did it. And I don't think I really understood at the time that what I really was pursuing was the story, because I think stories have a lot of information, like from the earlier days before text, stories and songs were how people communicated things because it was easier to remember than just straight up facts. So I think without knowing, I've always been interested in storytelling, and uh this podcast just became a place for me to truly tell people stories that could inspire and motivate and also prove to me that things are possible. So it really just started because I was feeling very discouraged and I felt a lot of comfort in a lot of people's stories who looked like me, who experienced things that were similar, but they kind of made it to the other side.

SPEAKER_05 7:26

So what what you were saying is that there's a lot of there

Evolving Podcast Themes and Focus

SPEAKER_05 7:29

was a lot of intimacy in doing audio podcasts. Like there's a it's almost like a better conduit to connect with an audience through a medium where you're able to tell your stories, and that's the concentration of what it is. You know, and I like visuals, I do, but there's something about listening as it going, as it seeps in, as you're sharing, and how it connects with an audience, with a particular set of listeners, with the with your community. Like that to me is you know, one of the best things that I've enjoyed learning and hearing from other podcasters, share is that is that is that connection. And not that the video is a bad thing. I think that's it's an added element. But focus-wise, it is coming back down to how you sound, how it comes across, what it is, and even sharing your stories, like you said, of hearing other people talk about hey, you know, my hair is just as much as part of me, everything else is just as much as part as me as my voice, as my story. It it is it is my background, it is my culture, it is everything that I am. And people that again put those stories out there, and I tell people all the time. That's the beauty of doing a podcast. It's gonna, it's gonna connect with someone else, it's gonna give somebody the authority and inspiration to want to say, hey, I'm just like them, I could do this. I'm I'm that kind of person. So when you sit down and decided, uh, okay, podcast is the medium that I'm gonna go, what was the next step in the development of saying, hey, okay, now this is what I want to talk about? I want to concentrate my stories or I want to concentrate my show toward a pus a particular area of expertise or a particular niche that I connect with and that I can, you know, that I know that I'll be able to share an experience or elaborate a lot on. So what was that like for you when you said undecided this is the path I want to go down when it started creating content?

SPEAKER_03 9:15

You know what I actually love about that question is that's a question that I re-ask myself continuously. And if I'm really thinking about it, I would say that question is probably why I keep on, I guess, evolving. So the podcast I have now is called The Working Wall Black Show. And I truly look at it as an evolution of my original one that I mentioned before. Even though when I decided to start it, I was looking at it as a spin-off. But it really is an evolution of sense and a little more specific as well, because it's all around specifically that journey of career and um entrepreneurship versus before it was just kind of everything. To really sit down and decide what it was. Honestly, I didn't I wasn't really trying to start a podcast about that, but when I really started to really believe in it is because more people were telling me that these conversations that I'm having, they are relatable and other people experience this as well. I felt like I was kind of um isolated in a sense where I was the only one experiencing this. And part of that could be like, you know, going to like a PWI school, a primary white institute, um, which isn't a bad thing. But if you're one of very few black people and one of very few black people with locks who are kind of you're having conversations with this about kind of career growth, you feel like you're the only one experiencing it. So once I realized that other people had a similar problem, I realized, okay, this is what the conversation needs to be about. And even with that, like people kind of understood it, but didn't even. So it's like that having that belief in what you want to show about is like so important because there were so many people, even people in the podcast space. Uh there's somebody I spoke to earlier on, his name is Greg E. Hill, and I look at him as like uh one of those people who are early in podcasting, at least in the 2010s time, and um just like was able to build something with it and stuff. And he didn't quite understand it because he was like, You're talking about natural hair for like what 40 minutes? No one wants to listen to that, but really it was just like a conversation to it was like an entry point. Hair is like an entry point to having other types of conversation that came from it. So um yeah, it was really like uh having that belief came from other people encouraging me to do it, and then just I just had to see it for real. I just had to believe that I wasn't the only one. And I think that's kind of the guiding light that kind of kept me um on track and not jumping off to all these other conversations too.

SPEAKER_05 11:33

Right. Um, and and that's that's one of the things when you sit down with an idea, right? It can it can be it can be very broad, but you also have to understand that the broader the space, the more you're gonna have to work to find what your primary audience is. Like, how do you wrangle that in? How do you track that down? Like, how do you get people who want to listen for a particular reason?

Starting with Limited Resources

SPEAKER_05 11:57

You know, not everybody's Joe Rogan, not everybody has a built-in celebrity that gives them the fortitude to say, I can just talk about whatever, right? It's usually, hey, I have to primarily center focus on a specific area. And as like you said, as you evolve, as things go on, maybe it does shift, maybe it does change because that's how we are. We're we're people, we're we're our lives change, our certain things do change, but you still have to have a passion enough to say, I can sit down and talk about it, and I can dig and I can explore and look at it from because I'm talking, listen, I'm doing this now. I'm choosing a niche, which is podcasting, that is very broad with so many different genres and areas, and there's gonna be expertise at all levels because it's going to be different for each one. But still, people will find value in what I'm trying to create because it is about a podcasting and it is about learning, which is what I want to translate for people. Is like, look, your journey is going to resonate with a certain particular individual sitting down somewhere and saying, I don't know how to start, I don't see enough people like like me out there doing this. And, you know, the the more that I can find, the more that I can bring in, the more that I can introduce, that gives them the opportunity to say, you know what, there is. There is a voice, there is somebody that there's a path. Let me see what that path is. Yeah. He or she was able to find it. Maybe I can find it too if I just go down it. That's my hope in doing all of this. So now that you've sat down and said, I have content, I have an idea. Okay, the next question is the how. What is the next step in that process? Okay, we've written it down, I've got an outline, I know what I'm gonna talk about. Now, this is the nitty-gritty of saying, what's the tech part? How do I get started? What tools, what can I do? Say if I'm starting on a very limited budget. I don't have all the money, I don't have the money to go buy a sure SM7B, I don't have the equipment to start with this. But what are some of the things that you've figured out along the way to say, you know what, this works just fine for now? If there comes a point where I need to upgrade, I will upgrade. But, you know, this is the path.

SPEAKER_03 14:04

Yeah. Yeah. I started with a $20 mic from Amazon. Um, I mentioned like the iPad mini that I won at a for some contest because there's some Brazilian students in, and they just awarded me as like the most helpful, which was really cool. Because I didn't even think I was in the entry for it. And also had a uh stand for that uh iPad that I got from TJ Maxx. So probably like, you know what? I've never said it before. I probably would go on record and say I had the cheapest setup ever, outside of people who just use their computer or their phone or something. It was like $40 max to produce a podcast. And I was using iMovie um or Windows Movie Maker, one of the two, um, to produce everything. And then I ended up getting Da Vinci Resolve, which is a really it's an industry standard, but it's a free option as well, which a lot of big time videographers and filmmakers still swear by DaVinci Resolve. Um I think that it's so easy to get caught up spending your money on all the different stuff. And I would go as far as to say you should not get the best of the best equipment until one, you've been in this space for a little bit and you actually know that you want to do this. And because I think starting with the things that aren't as high quality allows you to perfect your craft and everything. Like now I know, like with a super advanced mic, you could get away with like talking with that cheap mic, you gotta have that proper mic technique because it won't work. And um also I just personally think is really cool. I love the glow up, right? You start with a lower cost item, and then just your your people who've been there from the beginning, they see you rise and grow, and then you could always flash back like look at how I started, look at me, and look at me now. So yeah, but yeah, so that's all like kind of blah blah. But as far as like actually, if you needed like simple things to do, if you wanted to do audio or video, what I use early on to record remotely with people was a software called Zencaster. And I recently just looked back and they had their they had changed a lot, but I feel like they're kind of back to having a very strong free plan for kind of independent creatives. So that's a recording tool, and now also you can host on there as well. I personally would recommend if you want like a good quality mic that's not super, super expensive. Audio Technica has some really great ones that don't cost too much. But to be honest with you, I think like if you're an Apple user, having like the wired earbuds and using your phone, you could get a lot done with that. And I even know some professional podcasters who've in like a crazy situation, they had to record the audio with the just the regular voice memo app, and they were like, okay, this actually sounds pretty great. So I think it's like a lot of people kind of scoff at some of this like lower stuff, but at the end of the day, I think podcasting, I think the beauty in it is that you don't always need the fanciest stuff, and you just kind of make something happen with it. I think the most important thing is really just seeing if you could be in like a space that isn't very noisy, and if you're recording yourself, then just make sure it's a very well-lit area. Those are like the two things that I think if you could control those two things, you can make anything work. Right.

SPEAKER_05 17:13

And that's that's what I want to hear um from a lot of the the creators that I've had on. Is like, look, I started with the messiest, crappiest stuff that I had that I could that I could scrape together at you know, at the point at that juncture in my life, that's what I had available to me. And kind of the things that you said is is that part of the experience is digging for what works. Hey, let me get this. This is free, I can use this. Uh you know, hey, yeah, DaVinci Resolve has a free version. Let me use that as far as putting together editing or you know, putting my my audio software and just trying all of the different angles to get out there and to get started. Because there is this ideology that a lot of people think, you know, I I do have to go spend a hundred dollars to start out with a microphone. And, you know, again, if you don't even know that you like what you're doing, you might have an idea, sit down, think, record, get frustrated, and give up before you started the process of going, you know what, I'm 20 episodes in. Now it's time for the investment. Now it's time to double down on you know what I've been doing because I do I love it, I enjoy it. I I can see myself doing, you know, 50 more episodes of this and really find value behind investing the time and energy into putting into something like buying equipment because it can't for a lot of people who who are just getting started, I tell them it can get pretty pricey pretty quick. So you can sneeze and

Navigating Guest Selection for Your Podcast

SPEAKER_05 18:40

and spend $500 and where did it go? And still not have everything that you think that you need. It's crazy, but you know, that's just the shape and the way that a lot of technology is nowadays, and everything is shifting and changing. Like you said, hey, if it's the phone, start with the phone, work your way around it. I have been telling a lot of podcasters who'd listen in is that there's a lot of free AI apps, it'll clean up your audio. You know, uh Adobe has one that you can go put in your audio if it doesn't sound the best, it'll help clean it up. I mean, what I'm using now is I use Riverside FM. They have a free program. You can get so many hours out of it. It has a video pro, I mean, it has an audio processor as well if you need to clean up your audio a little bit. Um, because again, the resistance is people get the idea that it's going to cost me a lot of money to jump in this game, not realizing, hey, look, no, no, no, there's a lot of free, there's just a lot of free opportunities to get started. I tell people distribution at the beginning point is free. Go to rssfeed.com, sign up for your RSS feed, and then you can find distribution to all your platforms. Eventually you will want to host somewhere else, but for the beginning part, that's to start out with free. You haven't spent, you know, you you don't have to spend a dime to get the idea rolling. But what what I what I but I like focusing on, like you said, is it hey, look, I sit down with what this what I had and I figured out how to make a system work for myself. So I want to move into the next step of what that is.

SPEAKER_03 20:11

One quick thing real quick, because I realized as you were talking, it's like it's so funny because it's been such a long time since I started. I haven't been in that mindset for a while. It's so interesting that there's a huge like thought of like how much it costs to get started. But I actually think the bigger cost, maybe there's like three levels of resistance or cost or something like that. I think the first one is starting. The other one is just to keep it going, because like you don't know like once you're busy and you have an episode you haven't put out in a few weeks and everything, and that's a cost right there, because it's like now it's like, okay, do I pay to have someone do it for me? Do I just like dig in? And then another resistance is when you've been doing it, you figured out how to make it work, you got the equipment, and then it's like, okay, but how do I get more people to tune into it, to listen, to hear about it, and you're weighing cost of social media or ads or appearances here, or doing all this stuff to market it. So it's like if you were to save money anywhere, I think the best place to do it is to start to like get the equipment you need. He can reinvest later.

SPEAKER_05 21:11

Well, we're we're gonna head right down that path. We're going that we're headed right in the direction that we're gonna do. Okay. So okay. So once you get the system in place, right, you think everything the next part that I usually like to talk about is depending on the on your show style and what it is, if you're doing mostly just say uh education one-on-one, you're just talking into the microphone and and you're almost like a uh workshop or something, then there's the other part of doing like what we're doing here with interviews. How do you go about, especially with a niche that's kind of a little bit more tight and specific of what you're trying to find, how do you start vetting and looking for guests to bring on to your show? Um, because that's another one. It's great to have an open invite and everybody will be like, Yeah, I can do this, but if you're shooting for a particular area, um, you do have to be a little bit more uh in depth of how you develop an outreach or a system of how to connect with people to invite them on to have a conversation. So what is that like for Walter when he has to sit down and say, you know what, I'm I'm gonna go hunting for guests. I need to go find people I have on that spit that fit my specific, you know, or at least close in that area that I'm in.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Yeah. Social media has made it so easy for me. Matter of fact, I'm actually overwhelmed by like the number of potential guests I have. I have a list. So in in my podcast it's called the Working While Black Show. And so it's already something where it's like you have to be black to be on it because the whole point is like, what was it like working while black? That's like the one common thread that kind of brings everyone together because it really is like a community of like we we get it, we understand type of place. And that's why I created that show specifically for that because it would be way easier I think to just create a general show about workplace or entrepreneurship. And I meet so many fascinating people and I'm like oh I'd love to interview you but I kind of put that guardrail up on myself and it kind of forces me to be accountable and once again stick to what it is that I want to do because man I got the squirrel and I'll go chase everywhere like oh what's how you doing that's cool. Let's talk about it. So but the reason why it is still easy though is because like I come across people all the time and I I like to lead with curiosity. So for me my one kind of common rule because someone can be like perfect on paper but it has to be something about it that makes me kind of curious like kind of sparks that curiosity within me like I I want to hear more about this story, this thing you've accomplished this problem you experienced I want to hear more about it and I think it's kind of relatable as well that way when you do it. So that's one. And then the other for my show is um so part of it's curiosity for me but then other part is like okay what would my listeners or viewers take from this it can it be in half is the story actually helpful in a relatability way so they don't feel isolated like I was when I first started or is it someone who could take someone where it's like okay we all experienced this but they've kind of found a way to kind of have that transformation can we speak toward that or do they have some type of information that is helpful to broaden our understanding so like DEI for example is always a big topic but and there's everyone who has

Finding Your Brand's Voice

SPEAKER_03 24:19

different feelings on it but there's also people who can speak more to what it really means to be in a company and kind of creating change that isn't rapid but takes like 10 years to implement or an economist that has a different type of understanding of what's going on in this country and how it influences us over here in this one. Like why should we care about something that's happening in Iran even though we don't know anything about that country. So like things like that or it could just be someone who just like yeah I quit my job and I figured it out type of thing. So there's all these different types of stories but it's really common uh curiosity but then also um can this person actually help someone who took the time out of their day to listen to my podcast.

SPEAKER_05 25:01

Right. Oh man I love that right because that you have to you have to know how to go dig for the

Promoting Your Podcast Effectively

SPEAKER_05 25:09

right kind of individuals to have on. Even if you're even if you're saying you're having a broad uh show about business or entrepreneurship there's gonna be certain ones that are going to be that align with who you are or what you believe or what goes on and how you deal with your you know your everyday dealings in life you're not gonna have on you know you're not gonna have a Bernie made off or somebody on who's gonna be like yeah I've cheated the system and I and I want to talk about it and I want to teach people how to do that. You know if you're not talking about business you're like no I don't I don't you know that's not the avenue that I'm shooting for. So yeah it it can there's still a process to vet the right kind of guest to invite

The Power of Social Media in Podcasting

SPEAKER_05 25:53

them on because I see people just most of the time blindly saying okay yeah I I've done it myself. Look I I've done over 500 episodes of uh another show that I did um and there were times that I was just like who are you yeah like come on let's call let's talk right um it's fun to do right it's and it's fun to do though sometimes but that's the thing it's a wild card you're not not always going to be guaranteed a great conversation fitting for your audience or if it's fitting for your brand right this is what you do you help brands figure it out so you want them to kind of have that sort of voice that sort of tone it carries across their brand you know because I think when you're talking about you know finding the audience again there's going to be a a particular sect of individuals that wants to hear what you talk about because they want to learn about what that is. You know somebody again like you said somebody in Iran and you're they're talking about war in Iran and everything else and you're like I I got no clue what that is but I'm not gonna listen to a 10 part series on why Iran is in war in the first place. Like unless I'm interested right you you you have to have an interest that that's gonna make you want to align to listen to that. So I love that part about it. Now let's shift into the other part we kind of touched on before we got into this part but you talked about the promotion part right because I think that's another area that a lot of creators they get excited right they say okay

Creating Engaging Content Through Storytelling

SPEAKER_05 27:15

I got my content I got my guest I recorded man they're they sound great right man this is gonna be fire I got everything ready to go and then you put it out there and maybe crickets in the beginning nothing you don't get people to follow. So what are some of the ways and methods that you've found most in helping promote what it is that you do and what do you what do you think some of the things that are maybe pitfalls that you might share that could help maybe another you know aspiring podcaster listen to and say okay I'm not gonna do what Walter did he said that that didn't work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:49

So what are some of those things for you? You know what's fun I think there's uh certain people have kind of specific rules on what you have to do and what I'm excited about this time right now is I feel like things are um there's there's like the standards are kind of crumbling the ways you're supposed to do things some of them still work but then a lot of them it's like oh we have to do things differently now one with the adoption of social media also this whole thought of like the saturation of podcasts I don't truly believe in ration matter of fact I think the more people out here it kind of proves the concept of podcasting but it does mean that you can't just be like oh I have a podcast go listen you really got to speak to the right people and really connect with them. So I think in general I live in a digital world a lot of my work is in like social media and like bringing people from social like to the top of funnel into whatever else we got going on. So I'll talk from a social perspective. And I think that you know clips in general are kind of like a standard thing. Like most people know what they are and everything but I do believe at this point clips are kind of like the minimum requirement type of thing. Like I and I don't say that as like if you're not doing clips you're losing. I mean like it's it's not just clips. I think clips have a very specific purpose for discoverability to get people to find you and everything but there's lots of other different mediums and for some people whether it's their quality or not able to clip properly or they just don't have video media clips aren't even like the best option for them. So I think a few other things that I think everyone should start doing more are utilizing things like carousels because with carousels that's something where it doesn't even matter how you record you can still create a carousel that can stand apart and compete with some of the top podcasters as well. For those who don't know what carousels are think of them like almost like PowerPoint presentations are on social media and you've probably seen them basically you kind of swipe through um horizontally in each of how you swipe this new slide there. With the carousels I like to tell a kind of a story and that's really how I think about

Building a Sustainable Podcasting Strategy

SPEAKER_03 29:57

marketing right you have this podcast that's recorded let's say it's like I record mine for an hour but let's say it's like even a 30 minute one. Within those 30 minutes you've probably collected at least two stories that you can pull from and with that story there's something within it that someone else is going to find relatable. And I think to really stand out it's like finding that story within the story that everyone can connect with right. So um and then taking that story and be like okay how can I share this on social. So one there's like the clip the social clip that's the standard way boom put it out there. But I think there's other ways that are more inviting something that I experiment um experimented with last year was a social post about fear. And it was a whole video one and I'll get to how I do it as a carousel in a second but the video it started with me. All the people who follow me they're kind of understood me already my guest they didn't know her as well but I really wanted them to know her and explain why. So I talked about how for most of my life I've been working on overcoming fear and how fear has kind of stopped me in my tracks. And then I said I think I figured it out and then I switched from me to a clip from the podcast where my guest was talking about how she now looks as anxiety as wisdom and not something to run away from she starts to go towards it running away. And that right there's a whole like mind shift thing. And I did put it out as a clip before and I did like perform well on social. But when I did that combination of me and her and the the combo I like to think of it as like remixing a moment in the podcast that was able to connect with people in a completely different way. Because I started off with just talking about the problem we all experience and then I brought her in as a solution to that problem. And that just brought more value to why you should listen to my podcast because we have conversations like these all the time. So that's like just my personal formula for interview based podcasts is when it comes to like whatever story it is or solution or common problem, finding whatever it is and thinking like okay so like how does everyone else relate to this and then just dig deeper into that and so it's not me being like listen to my podcast and forcing it down people's throat where it's like hey y'all y'all experienced this as well let's talk about it. Here's a solution we talked more about it on the show and then just keep doing that over and over again with different pieces. So that's the video side the carousel is similar but basically on the first slide it's like talking about the common problem second slide is digging a little bit deeper into that problem and then you just kind of dig deeper into that story. There's lots of ways to go about it and people say like use hooks and everything like that and that kind of is a hook in a sense but I look at it as like what's the problem how do we relate to the problem what are examples of this and how do we even like what what what do we do about it and what do we do about it is where the podcast comes in.

SPEAKER_05 32:50

And I'm blown away you touched on a a few things on the first part of that I that I love that you shared was the fact that you're tying in a personal emotion into the story and weaving it together in a way that finds its own separate value, its own sphere that people are going to connect with because they're like this is the host talking about it. This is her story that he interviewed about it. It just brings it like full circle like I I I love that idea other than just saying this is the clip from the podcast. Like I know those are important they do but I like it when there's context built into it like you what you just said because it elaborates more on why it's important. It doesn't matter that's kind of cool though I that that stuck as a oh thank you thank you as a good as a good way uh and then second yeah the the carousel thing I I think people overlook the opportunity that comes with doing it when it comes to being social because most people just think it's the clip or that's the audiogram and I'm done. Right. And and there's

Avoiding Burnout in Podcasting

SPEAKER_05 33:54

more to it right there's more to it than creating the assets that again are going to be able to you're gonna be able be able to push out on social media. That'll you know that'll react differently all platforms don't act the same so some might cater a little bit more visibility discoverability with say a carousel as opposed to just putting in a an audiogram of what you have your conversation on there. One of the one things that I I love too is when people have found ways to turn the transcript into a into an article or a blog piece or something that they would add another another establishable value piece that that comes from a a conversation that you had. Well my grandma used to say don't leave any meat on the bone and they're leaving meat on the bone. There's still more there that you could possibly possibly take out of a conversation like this. Because you know the the the point of having the conversation is to extract as much value as you can out of it so that people will find something that's going to they're going to learn from it or something that again that's going to be an emotional tie-in that helps solve a problem for them. That's what I love about what you just expressed. So and that was great. This is why I love having the podcasters on this is for me the the most unique part is having the people on who've already gone through this and know and figured out certain things because I I want that I want the new I want the newbies to listen to go, crap, I want to be like that. I want to take that I want to learn from that.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

That's why this is so important because I've learned this because I've been in places where it's like I'm doing the clips and no one's paying attention. I failed so many times and it's like you just I think when people say keep going and everything like consistency is good advice but for a specific reason because you just learn as you go but it's so important to not just continue to do the stuff that's like not working. It's like you gotta continue to reinvent and test new things. So that's that's why I'm so glad you're doing this right because like I mean maybe some of y'all know but y'all don't know who's hosting this podcast man.

SPEAKER_05 35:56

He's been in so I'm so excited to tell people though that that that the show's not just about finding ways to maybe not have so much to do. It's just that you still have to do the work right you're gonna have to do the work. But isn't it better to so I I tell people it's like this when you go to the gym and work out by yourself, yes, you still might go and find results you still might find a consistency. You still might find a path you're going down. But isn't it better when you have a personal trainer there that's going to say whoa maybe you're doing this a little wrong or maybe you know to give a little bit of guidance and that's what this is it's to get guidance from those who are seasoned and have figured out this doesn't work this not might not work. Don't go down that path or yes go down that path because there's still left so much to explore and and that's what I want to that's what I want to do as a as a as a podcast host and hopefully a podcast educator. I want to teach people how to do this in a way that's again smart less you know again less resistance because I you can go on Apple you can go on Spotify you can go type in any podcast and you'll find four or five right off the bat that have like three episodes and it's dead and you know they they put in three episodes and that was it and it was gone. You might listen to the first one go, this was great. What what happened? What happened? Yeah was some and that's the thing too I want to ask you about this how did you start learning how to figure out the method to regulate and control your time and energy in actually recording and creating a podcast is that's another one that a lot of them overlook. They just think I turn on the mic it's great it's done. So what are some of the the the little hacks that you've learned that say okay this helps a little bit ease how I record or how I go about you know the editing process or until you get to a finished product.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

Yeah. I um I'll first say that I'm still figuring it out because I've burned out in so many different ways. I think one day I'll write the book on like 30 ways to burn out or something like that. Because man, I mean I keep I keep learning finding new ways to burn out. And that's like I think when you see these podcasts that drop off y'all it is so easy. I remember when I first got to

The Importance of Community and Support

SPEAKER_03 38:00

I think the 18 episode mark and something was just like I was feeling like I was still good. I had episodes and stuff but there was something like within me I was like I don't know what it is but I just feel like a block and fortunately this I think is probably like the biggest hack ever is just to be in community with other podcasters because I was sharing that how I was feeling with them. They're like they were they asked me I remember them asking me like what episode are you at? And I was like telling them I was like yeah yep I got that too when I hit this range I felt it too is like that kind of burnout period. So um I think being in community another thing for me was I was looking at I think at the time I was looking at people like Joe Budden I was looking at kind of the gimlets that had a whole slate of a podcast but looking at all these people who are operating efficiently and on a high end putting out content consistently every single week and I wanted to be that and I realized that one they have teams that help them to put it out all the time but then even it's just it's just I think that my biggest challenge was my own expectations of what I should do. I think that if I were to start all over again I would not set out to do like a weekly podcast in a sense where it's like every single week I have a new episode coming out. I would do batches or kind of seasons. Like you don't have to necessarily call a season but like once you get to episode 12 literally take a break and you might not get everyone um you know when you come back from the break some people might fall off but at least you won't fall off right and in the grand scheme of things once you get to episode like 300 like if you took like four breaks and everything who cares man yeah just get there first. So um I think breaks would be the biggest the biggest biggest hack because then it also gives you time to reflect and look at everything you've done. So letting go of expectations of trying to be the best of the best without having the resources to be the best of the best setting breaks. Something my fiance kind of drilled into me I did not listen to her but now I am and I would say the other thing is like figuring out what your honestly there's a lot in the pre-production also the recording of the podcast that makes everything else easier. Because I think a lot of the holdup isn't recording. Like for me recording's so easy but it's like the editing the postproduction all that process make the whole from beginning to end as simple as possible and you're good and then start adding on as you go. Like right now I'm I do a lot of camera switching and stuff. That is not necessary at all but I like to do it but it adds on a little bit of time. Yeah so yeah um those are the three things um fix expectations and making the recording to publishing process so so so so simple.

SPEAKER_05 40:42

Right and that you just you spoke to hopefully what a lot of listeners are listening to and go, okay, let me take these notes down because that's one thing that I also preach is if you do the work in the front end, the back end work is a lot less hectic and you know you it helps when you start recording and start putting it out it it lessens the burden and the frustration that comes along with it. You know again one of my uncles used to say think about your think about your departure upon your arrival. Made sense. He was like you know think about how you're gonna leave when you get here so that you know that way you're not stressed at the end, right? All of us have thought about when we go to a sporting event you know let me get closest to the stadium. Uh guess what? When 50,000 people let out at the same time who's closest who's gonna get out quicker you the one that parked right there at the front or one of the guys towards the back end and you can get over there and it might take them a little bit longer but he's gonna get out a lot sooner than you are is just again how you how you process when you develop a system like hey look if you put in the work in the beginning the the back end stuff that's why I say building the system is almost just as much as important as the content itself because it's it's gonna help you. It's gonna help to build

Future Goals and Aspirations in Podcasting

SPEAKER_05 41:57

like all the podcasters that I've had on the main point of having them on was the point of understanding sustainability. Because again it is like you said I I you get the burnout and some of them don't come back from it. Some of them say I was done you know five episodes and it was just way too much I'm done I'll go find you another hobby or something else. And that's okay that's if that's the the way you want to go but I I generally believe that when people want to get into this they do have an idea and they do have a voice they just don't realize how difficult of an endeavor this might be in the beginning and then to see what it looks like on the back end right that's what people glamorize. They see the back end stuff and once you've already there and they're like my God he's got you know so many followers or he's had so many episodes he got to interview all these people that you know you don't see the beginning messy part. The the again the muddled part in the beginning that's very hard to make your way through right and you get to a point where that's why the next phase is finding those people that you directly mentioned when you say I was at about what episode 18.

SPEAKER_03 42:57

I think that like honestly that 17 to 21 episode range.

SPEAKER_05 43:01

So those are the people that I'm going to shoot for next to find out the experience of where they're at. You once you get to the point because then you go then you really get a you understand the magnitude of what what's involved and you say I you're either going to have the one reaction I love this and I can do this again for another 50 60 episodes or you're gonna say I don't know I don't I don't know how to I don't know if I want to continue this. So I love that you shared I shared that insight these are what are what are important uh now we get to the fun part of I always love having these conversations here but what's next what what is um next evolution for Mr. Walter Gainer as far as what he's continuing to do with his podcasts any upcoming like uh projects stuff that you have on the burner that you're excited for that you know that might lead into what twenty twenty seven has around the corner too. We're not that far away.

SPEAKER_03 43:56

We are not because man this year already been going by so quick. Um, time just moves quickly. So I mentioned uh a couple things before, right? Uh my podcast, The Working While Black Show, also mentioned I burned out 30,000 times. I'm excited to be a podcaster again. Podcasting started off as a hobby passion project, and then I quickly discovered just like oh I could actually get a job in this industry. Oh, I could start helping businesses launch networks and all these different things. I kept getting drawn even further and farther into this whole creator economy. And it's like once I knew all that was possible, it's like I have so many different paths, which one do I choose? And it was overwhelming. And this year is the first year where I felt very confident and proud to kind of return back to my podcast because I'm somebody when I join and work with somebody, I commit to what it is that I'm doing. And my problem has been that all of my stuff has gone to the back burner and everything. So I'm bringing it back up. And this year is my challenge to still stay committed to everything that I'm doing. All like clients I work with, um, jobs I have, but also not forgetting about my podcast. My challenge for myself is to get 10,000 downloads this year, and this is that's specifically audio too, because I have audio and video. And for some, that's a big number. That's huge. It takes 10 years to get there. For others, it's a small number. And I look at people's analytics a lot, and man, is it a small number when you get to like a lot of these larger personalities and stuff. But to me, it's a number that I can feel very proud of. And um my real test of if I could do that is building what I call a marketing engine for myself. And that is kind of what you're talking about, right? Stability. So I still want to reach what is a lofty goal for me personally. Um, but I also know I don't have the time to really like commit to it uh 100%. So it's like, how can I build an engine that can promote it and share it and distribute it everywhere without burning out and without doing goofy stuff either. Without paying for goofy stuff either, too. A lot of people, by the way, it's so impressive almost like where people spend their money on stuff just to get a quick win versus a little sustainable one. So that's what I'm focused on now, and I'm sharing everything. Just I like to build in public because I've gained a lot from other people, and I like to, you know, each one, teach one is my philosophy, is my lifestyle. So I share it on everywhere I can share it. So YouTube channel I'm starting, just about me, my journey is building a media company and specifically like that podcast. I'll share stuff on LinkedIn that can help other people, and then just in talking to people. Like I just like sharing what I learned. So yeah, working well black show. I love that.

SPEAKER_05 46:41

All right. Well, we're gonna wrap it up. Hey, thank you so much, Walter. I appreciate it. I like that.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

Man, man, thank you for doing thank you for inviting me. I let you go. Really appreciate you. Everything that you do in general, but just I'm really glad to be a part of this as well. And I appreciate it. Thank you, Walter.

SPEAKER_05 46:58

Thank you. All right, all right, east.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

And that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast about podcasting. If you want to dive deeper into Walter Gaynor the Second's World, check out the Working While Black Show, yeah, available wherever you listen to podcasts. And for the full picture of everything Walter is building, head over to bosslocksmedia.com. All links are in the show notes. If this episode brought you value, please take a moment to subscribe and leave us a review. It goes a long way in helping us get discovered by new podcasters who are ready to learn and grow. Thanks so much for listening, uh, and we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

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